Curse

maxxfury · Sep 12, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

I was under the assumption that that Seed of Life and Aegis chaining you just did before was worth 45 seconds of being useless. The bar is substantially better than everything else out there, but is the most fragile build ever created. Everything else is substantially worse, but far less fragile. Worth it? ...

If you run with selfless spirit, its got a 100% upkeep so its WAY less fragile than if you ran divine spirit and borked it. But with less energy cost reduction.

If your Ap fails, your have to run with skills on their normal recharge and spam ps a little less. You still keep your main Eman up without it now.
ITs not as dangerous as it used to be with the 20/60 duration of the old selfless.

Fleeting · Sep 12, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

If you run with selfless spirit, its got a 100% upkeep so its WAY less fragile than if you ran divine spirit and borked it. But with less energy cost reduction.

If your Ap fails, your have to run with skills on their normal recharge and spam ps a little less. You still keep your main Eman up without it now.
ITs not as dangerous as it used to be with the 20/60 duration of the old selfless.

In all fairness, even if AP falls off, no monk should *have* to spam PS in any area of the game, so there isn't significant danger outside of (maybe) destroyers and lich-level damaging mobs. I run Mo/E WoH hybrid for most areas and weapon-swapping to a prot enchanting staff on Aegis / PS seems to work for the duration of most encounters.

So, he should be safe in that regard simply because stuff dies / most teams run two monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

...glimmer with selfless spirit comes in at a close second due to spam potential.

Didn't that get unfavored by the community? That was pretty shocking. Yes, WoH is better but that doesn't mean the build's useless. There's a 'good' section for that sort of thing. I prefer GoL over WoH anyday because it's the only healing spell that's needed so you have tons of space for Protection etc. WoH isn't so spammable and I've never been good at meeting the condition.

The PvX wiki community vote isn't something to take as gospel: PnH Mo/W with just Patient Spirit and a signet for healing got voted 'Great' for PvP - regardless of the fact that, in practice, it crumples against high elemental damage, something there's a lot of in PvP.

As for GoL, it's a great spell, but be sure that you still have a secondary (and possibly tertiary) form of healing, especially in areas with abilities like Diversion and Signet of Humility - like the Abaddon mission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

I was under the assumption that that Seed of Life and Aegis chaining you just did before was worth 45 seconds of being useless. The bar is substantially better than everything else out there, but is the most fragile build ever created. Everything else is substantially worse, but far less fragile. Worth it? ...

Keep in mind that you're not worthless for 45 seconds if you miss AP. Seed of Life and Aegis do recharge on their own and 20%/HSR can and does happen quite often over the course of a mission. You just have to take your bar and realize that, should you miss AP (and barring HSR), you will lose the ability to spam for that 45 second window.

The short version: As long as you keep in mind that AP is not 100% guaranteed (and build around that), you're fine.

EDIT: Remember that for PvE mitigation, the Prot Monk henchmen (all?) have Aegis on their bar and will chain it with you, so you can spend one team slot on a potent non-hero insurance policy.

maxxfury · Sep 13, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleeting

In all fairness, even if AP falls off, no monk should *have* to spam PS in any area of the game, so there isn't significant danger outside of (maybe) destroyers and lich-level damaging mobs. I run Mo/E WoH hybrid for most areas and weapon-swapping to a prot enchanting staff on Aegis / PS seems to work for the duration of most encounters.

maybe i should have said.. apply PS liberally in every case it will be usefull!

Even with a mo/e woh bar you need to be pretty carefull with PS been a 10e spell, and you cant always cast it when you would like to, and you have to do with a small prot or a rof when you ideally would have prefered a PS.

Having the extra energy and -cast from the spirit enables you to put PS on a lot more targets you would ideally want covering with it, instead of having to settle for a small prot ^

Age · Sep 13, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Its a pve bar in a pve thread in a pve board.
Hence the inclusion of pve skills..

I prefer to work with standard builds this means no pve skills.When I started to Monk back in 05 there were no pve skills.I do use 1 or 2 on my smiter build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat
Quote:

Didn't that get unfavored by the community? That was pretty shocking. Yes, WoH is better but that doesn't mean the build's useless. There's a 'good' section for that sort of thing. I prefer GoL over WoH anyday because it's the only healing spell that's needed so you have tons of space for Protection etc. WoH isn't so spammable and I've never been good at meeting the condition.

The only time to use GoL is for self healing along with Dwayna's Kiss.You don't need that many protection spells on.Don't forget you may want to back a res if no other is willing to.

Ccat · Sep 13, 2009, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

The only time to use GoL is for self healing along with Dwayna's Kiss.You don't need that many protection spells on.Don't forget you may want to back a res if no other is willing to.

I disagree. GoL can be constantly spammed with no downtime so there's no point in using Dwayna's Kiss - a skill that can be very effective in the right places, but there's no real way of knowing how many hexes and enchantments are on your allies, so there's not much guarantee as to what it will do. GoL is straightforward, 1/4 second, 1 second activation and recharge time but Dwayna's Kiss though not being elite is a dreaded 1 second cast and 3 second recharge. It's often just a waste of a skill slot since GoL is ever ready.

Also, you can never have too much protting, and I find still with GoL being the only direct heal that I don't have enough room for what I want to put in. The skill bar is a limitation in itself. 8 spaces is always a struggle for what you want to put in, so you have to make the most of it.

maxxfury · Sep 13, 2009, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I prefer to work with standard builds this means no pve skills.When I started to Monk back in 05 there were no pve skills.

well then.....i hope you dont use skills from factions, nightfall or gwen then! cos they werent out in '05 either..

The game has evolved since '05

If you do it on principle of not using pve skills, then fair enough(tho using them on smiter bars shows it not really on principle)..but dont think that you will be able to compete on quite the same level without using the broken skills and abusing them.

Burst Cancel · Sep 13, 2009, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Glimmer is inefficient, and its strengths are largely irrelevant as a result. For instance, it takes two casts of Glimmer to match a single cast of WoH, which takes not only twice as much energy, but also 50% more time (2.25s vs. 1.5s). Being "spammable" is a minor strength for healing spells, because it isn't desirable to spam heals in the first place. In other words, large, slow, efficient heals are better than small, fast, inefficient ones.

PvE skills are overrated for monks. While the buffed Selfless works very well on boonprots, the WoH hybrid still doesn't run any PvE skills.

Chthon · Sep 13, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Glimmer is inefficient, and its strengths are largely irrelevant as a result. For instance, it takes two casts of Glimmer to match a single cast of WoH, which takes not only twice as much energy, but also 50% more time (2.25s vs. 1.5s). Being "spammable" is a minor strength for healing spells, because it isn't desirable to spam heals in the first place. In other words, large, slow, efficient heals are better than small, fast, inefficient ones.

Let me expand on this a bit.

Fundamentally, monking is about 2 things: Time Efficiency and Responsiveness.

Look at lifebars from a large granularity. Ignore the bumps and spikes in the rate of incoming damage and view it as a linear average. Time Efficiency comes into focus. Your job is to make sure that overall (heal + damage-prevented)/sec >= damage/sec indefinitely.

Now, looking at lifebars from a small granularity. Pay attention to those bumps and spikes in the rate of incoming damage. Responsiveness comes into focus. Your job is to react quickly and potently enough to make sure that the bumps and spikes don't manage to kill someone. (Or to proactively prevent those bumps and spikes.)

At the most basic level, that's all there is to monking.

What about energy efficiency? It's not actually a fundamental concern for monks (or anyone). Rather, it's a second-order concern that usually serves as the limiting factor on time efficiency. For most skills, you run up against not having enough energy to cast them and needing to wait for energy before you run up against cast or recharge time problems.

(But see the ER ele as an example of what happens when energy efficiency becomes irrelevant to time efficiency.)

Now, that brings us to Glimmer and why it still sucks.

The conventional wisdom on Glimmer for a long time was that it was hopelessly energy inefficient. Who cared how quickly you could spam it if you didn't have the energy to do so?

Now, Selfless more or less solves the energy efficiency problem, but it remains a bad skill. Why? Because it's still time inefficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

[I]t takes two casts of Glimmer to match a single cast of WoH, which takes... 50% more time (2.25s vs. 1.5s).

Now, Glimmer does have some strong points in terms of Responsiveness. Its quick recharge makes it more likely to be available when you need it. And it's quick cast makes it more likely to take effect before the target gets killed. However, other options that are time efficient are also decently responsive. The standard 2-spot-heals builds has one skill recharged with about the same frequency, and the cast times aren't unacceptably bad.

Age · Sep 13, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

well then.....i hope you dont use skills from factions, nightfall or gwen then! cos they werent out in '05 either..

The game has evolved since '05

If you do it on principle of not using pve skills, then fair enough(tho using them on smiter bars shows it not really on principle)..but dont think that you will be able to compete on quite the same level without using the broken skills and abusing them.

I have all chapters and addons and there is nothing wrong wth using it smiters bars.

Quote:

I disagree. GoL can be constantly spammed with no downtime so there's no point in using Dwayna's Kiss - a skill that can be very effective in the right places, but there's no real way of knowing how many hexes and enchantments are on your allies, so there's not much guarantee as to what it will do. GoL is straightforward, 1/4 second, 1 second activation and recharge time but Dwayna's Kiss though not being elite is a dreaded 1 second cast and 3 second recharge. It's often just a waste of a skill slot since GoL is ever ready.

Also, you can never have too much protting, and I find still with GoL being the only direct heal that I don't have enough room for what I want to put in. The skill bar is a limitation in itself. 8 spaces is always a struggle for what you want to put in, so you have to make the most of it.

It has always been known for D Kiss to be used in hybrid build along with WoH or GoL.I prefer Word over GoL as for unconditional.you have to think about hexs and conditions so you only have room for limited protects as well as res maybe.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 13, 2009, 08:28 PM // 20:28

@Burst Cancel + Chthon

That's why I said earlier that GoL is better when your teams bars aren't going below 50% easily, in other words situations where the foes aren't focused on Spike damage so much as pressure damage.(or when there is no tank present soaking all the damage.)

WoH is obviously better when dealing with spike damage. Chances are, if you find yourself continuously using GoL on the same target, you probably should bring WoH.

So, on a basic level, WoH is good at bringing single allies back from <50% health
GoL is good at keeping multiple allies above 50% health in non-spike situations.

This changes -slightly- when factoring in certain builds, like if you are using Arcane Mimicry on a hero to gain UA. Instead of healing for say, 150 health, GoL would heal for 200 unconditionally (assuming 14 healing prayers and 13 DF) against WoH's 245 heal below 50% health. GoL suddenly becomes a better skill at healing characters in spike damage.

However these situations all depend on just how much damage people are receiving, and the above scenario only expands the percentage of situations that GoL is more effective.

I'd certainly be interested in seeing someone doing a test. With the player as a monk, using the same team set up constant (and a UA hero both times for consistency), run a mission/dungeon running WoH, then run it using GoL. Then run the same using Arcane echo on UA

Eh, I know I kind of went off track with my talk of UA, but you get where I'm coming from

maxxfury · Sep 13, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Personally ,i dont really like how Glimmer feels when i use it, cant quite put my finger on why it doesnt feel upto the job for my playstyle. *shrugs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I have all chapters and addons and there is nothing wrong wth using it smiters bars.

Nothing wrong with using them on prot/heal bars either

gg.

Chthon · Sep 14, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

@Burst Cancel + Chthon

That's why I said earlier that GoL is better when your teams bars aren't going below 50% easily, in other words situations where the foes aren't focused on Spike damage so much as pressure damage.(or when there is no tank present soaking all the damage.)

If the pressure is light enough that no one's going under 50% in a hurry, it would be both easier and more efficient to HBoon+Heal Party.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 14, 2009, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If the pressure is light enough that no one's going under 50% in a hurry, it would be both easier and more efficient to HBoon+Heal Party.

Eh, I don't like 15 energy spells on my monk, that's just me.

I've used GoL and I like it simply because of it's cast time. I hate going to heal someone and have even -more- health go down in the time it takes for me to cast the thing.

It's all good though. Part of me is sort of sick of seeing WoH still in the limelight though. It's always been one of those elites that no other one could touch. that and back when LoD was in it's prime.

Burst Cancel · Sep 14, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

If pressure is light and constant, you just wait for people to hit 50% before juicing them with WoH; there's still no need to spam heals. If the entire party is taking damage at roughly the same rate, resulting in the undesirable situation of multiple people falling below 50% at roughly the same time, then you put Patient on a few of them and WoH the rest when they fall below half. Honestly, these sorts of damage situations are easy for even sub-par builds to handle, and it's not much of a recommendation for Glimmer to say that it excels in this context.

Age · Sep 15, 2009, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Didn't that get unfavored by the community? That was pretty shocking. Yes, WoH is better but that doesn't mean the build's useless. There's a 'good' section for that sort of thing. I prefer GoL over WoH anyday because it's the only healing spell that's needed so you have tons of space for Protection etc. WoH isn't so spammable and I've never been good at meeting the condition.

..

PvX is not the community as it is all around and try to come up with something original not from PvX.

Ccat · Sep 15, 2009, 11:34 AM // 11:34

I didn't say it was. Stop trying to get one over on everything.

maxxfury · Sep 15, 2009, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

PvX is not the community as it is all around and try to come up with something original not from PvX.

Cookie vs snowflake...everything has been tested, weighed and balanced with the current skills... been a snowflake for the sake of been a snowflake make dwayna(insert relevent god here) cry at your crappy underpowered bars.

By now everyone should know what skills are worth taking and which are blatantly NOT worth the effort to try and slot in your bar, And can gauge a bar at a glance.

Hence the stuff on pvx IS proven to some degree to work and is usually based on a solid principle for a bar. USUALLY! not to say there isnt some shit there not worth the page its saved on.

The general framework for a Woh, hb, ua, boon prot, bonder are all on pvx. as well as some of the lesser effective stuff too like lod hybrids, smiters ect.

Come up with something effective thats not on there is some form With current skill balance Age. NOTE=EFFECTIVE. And on par with what the "wiki noob" builds can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

I didn't say it was. Stop trying to get one over on everything.

"i want a toilet seat made of solid gold, but its just not on the cards now is it"

Ontopic for OP
Basically the idea is nice in theory, but in effect....its too much effort for not enough reward. The skill combo isnt broken enough to be truely effective at spamming ps+sb+shield guardian like the Infoozer can.
Doesnt quite hit the mark!

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 15, 2009, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Funny, I was under the impression that PvX has a bunch of outdatted build with a few good ones. At any rate, it's not PvX that people dislike so much as the fans that have the "PvX or nothing" additude.

Basically, pvx is where people go to get builds who can't make decent builds themselves. Not saying everyone, but most. Hell, I even use pvx to get hero builds when I'm using certain heroes to tide me over until I get three necros or paras or the like.

Age · Sep 15, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Cookie vs snowflake...everything has been tested, weighed and balanced with the current skills... been a snowflake for the sake of been a snowflake make dwayna(insert relevent god here) cry at your crappy underpowered bars.

By now everyone should know what skills are worth taking and which are blatantly NOT worth the effort to try and slot in your bar, And can gauge a bar at a glance.

Hence the stuff on pvx IS proven to some degree to work and is usually based on a solid principle for a bar. USUALLY! not to say there isnt some shit there not worth the page its saved on.

The general framework for a Woh, hb, ua, boon prot, bonder are all on pvx. as well as some of the lesser effective stuff too like lod hybrids, smiters ect.

Come up with something effective thats not on there is some form With current skill balance Age. NOTE=EFFECTIVE. And on par with what the "wiki noob" builds can do.

I would say mine are balanced.How proven are builds except for farming on pvx proven as it is those registed on pvx that vote for them?I would say most of the community isn't.You want something good it is through making it up yourself and testing but I guess for late comers like yourself it is good place to start.

I would rather make them up myself and test them out or get advice from friends,guildies and forums.I would rather ask what goes good with this.

I didn't start playing this game yesterday.

maxxfury · Sep 15, 2009, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I would say mine are balanced.How proven are builds except for farming on pvx proven as it is those registed on pvx that vote for them?I would say most of the community isn't.You want something good it is through making it up yourself and testing but I guess for late comers like yourself it is good place to start.

I would rather make them up myself and test them out or get advice from friends, guildies and forums.I would rather ask what goes good with this.

I didn't start playing this game yesterday.

guess if im a late comer, then you are too...beta stripes here thank you very much. Cos my startdate on this forum is SUCH an indication to when i started playing

*rollseyes.

proven? well look at the ones currently up there...(or verients of the main theme)
Woh hybrid
Hb healer
Ua protter
Barrier bonder
Ap monk
all pretty much meta for monks....and your balanced bars outclass these(or their varients) at their jobs?!

By now people who play arent "late comers" should know what skills work by now and what skills are Op and which are a waste....and which skills currently deserve slots in bars... hence the 'meta'*

Its pretty obvious which elites are a waste and which are worth taking just by lookin at them now

Cookie cutter bars become just that for a reason, because they use the skills sthat are most prominent and effective in the current meta..

Do i personally use wiki bars? I run a version Woh, i sometimes run a version of Hb, sometimes run a version of Ua, sometimes run a version of the Ap monk.....

People gravitate towards the same bars thru use, practice and the whittling down of the garbage to whats usefull. People with an userstanding WILL all end up at the conclusion of whats the best at the time..wether they use wiki or not..

Think this thread is adequately derailed from the OP take it to a new thread if you must continue, and lest leave the op's thread to the topic